Kai Bowe on Unscripted Power, Showrunning, and Building a Career That Can Actually Sustain You
Guest: Kai Bowe
Titles: Titles: Director of Current Programming, Unscripted, at OWN; showrunner; story producer; documentarian; screenwriter; former attorney
Episode Theme: How a nonlinear path through law, writing, and unscripted television can turn into real creative authority and why career longevity requires both craft and inner work.
Why this matters right now: At a time when so many creatives are chasing unstable pipelines, Kai Bowe offers a blueprint with range. This episode breaks down the real mechanics of unscripted TV, the money behind it, the difference between freelancing and network life, and why learning how to hold success matters just as much as getting the opportunity.
Kai Bowe’s path into the industry was anything but standard. She got her start as a teenager on set, interning on Do the Right Thing through her sister, but spent years convinced Hollywood was not her destination. She earned a psychology degree from UCLA, went to law school at Howard, and only fully claimed writing after doing The Artist’s Way and realizing creativity was not a hobby for her, it was a calling. From there, she wrote screenplays, learned hard lessons about timing and self-sabotage, then made a strategic pivot into reality television just as unscripted programming was taking off.
What we talk about
Getting started on iconic film sets (00:02:15)
Leaving law behind to pursue writing (00:03:53)
Turning early success into a hard lesson (00:07:12)
How unscripted story producing really works (00:10:27)
Freelancing, stability, and OWN leadership (00:19:44)
Why you’ll want to listen
How Kai built a nontraditional TV career (00:01:55)
“Success is something that is a learned practice.” (00:08:29)
Why freelancing needs a mindset shift (00:27:23)
What unscripted jobs actually pay (00:30:10)
How ethical editing works in unscripted TV (00:37:46)
About the guest
Kai Bowe is a veteran television producer and executive who has worked across scripted and unscripted television for decades. Her credits include America’s Next Top Model, Project Runway, Red Table Talk, and Leah Remini: Scientology and the Aftermath. She has worked as a story producer, showrunner, and documentarian, and now serves as Director of Current Programming, Unscripted, at OWN. With a background that spans psychology, law, writing, and production, Kai brings both strategic insight and creative depth to the way she builds stories and leads teams.
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Introduction
Fanshen Cox [00:00:00]:
Welcome, everyone, to season 7 of the Sister Brunch podcast. We are the only podcast that is building the largest archive of the stories of Black women and Black gender expansive people who are thriving, continuing to work, and change the entire industry in film, TV, media, content creation— all of the above. And today’s guest is already part of the Sister Brunch family because we’ve had her sister on the podcast on season 6. So that was actually one of our most popular episodes, was Nandi Bo. And now we have her sister, Kai Bo. She has worked across scripted and unscripted television. So excited to get into that because we haven’t had a lot of unscripted folks on the podcast, so there’s so much we can learn from that. She has produced and overseen influential projects including America’s Next Top Model, Project Runway, Red Table Talk, Leah Remini: Scientology and the Aftermath. Ooh, that one was— oh my goodness. So much on that one. And today she serves as director of current programming, unscripted, at OWN. Please help me give a warm welcome to Kai Bowe.
Kai Bowe [00:01:18]:
Thank you. It’s so good to be here.
Finding Her Path: From Law School to Storytelling
Fanshen Cox [00:01:20]:
It's really good to know you, to meet you. When we had Nandi on, she sent a text immediately afterwards. I was like, how have you not had my sister on too? We're really glad to have the family here. In Nandi's episode, we talked about how she kind of almost accidentally got into the industry, but then just went nonstop. And so was it that the two of you worked together when she was getting started? Tell us how your journey, how you, how you got here, all the things that happened before sitting here at Sista Brunch.
Kai Bowe [00:01:55]:
So as you mentioned, my sister was in production and still is. And we are 8 years apart. So when she was really starting to establish herself as an assistant director, she invited me to be an intern on Do the Right Thing.
Fanshen Cox [00:02:15]:
You were an intern on it?
Kai Bowe [00:02:17]:
Intern. I was one of the youngest people on set. I was 16 years old, acted like I belonged there, acted like I was running shit, you know, acted like I actually was getting paid.
Fanshen Cox [00:02:30]:
Yes.
Kai Bowe [00:02:32]:
But that started the journey. And before that, you know, I’d gone onto set with her and been an extra and things like that. But it was, for obvious reasons, one of the most pivotal experiences of my life. However, I had no intention whatsoever of being in the film industry. So I kept working different summers with her. I worked on Sister Act 2. I worked on The Court Martial of Jackie Robinson, and different movies. And of course, I was having the time of my life, working very, very hard. While most people were doing retail and folding up shirts at Benetton or something, I was on these sets and not taking it for granted. But I didn’t think it was for me. So biggest, you know, sense of denial ever, which I’m actually really grateful for. So— I thought that I, you know, I knew that I wanted a doctoral degree. I thought that I was this intellectual, which I am.
Fanshen Cox [00:03:32]:
Yes, yes ok.
Kai Bowe [00:03:33]:
Okay. But I went forward, UCLA psychology degree, thought I was going to be a psychiatrist or psychologist. I realized I’m like far too tenderhearted and emotional for that. Went to law school fully intending to be an attorney.
Fanshen Cox [00:03:52]:
Okay.
Kai Bowe [00:03:53]:
Halfway through, I was at Howard, which is, you know, the most amazing experience, was very happy. But halfway through, I started doing The Artist’s Way, which a lot of us have done and know. And I say, you know, don’t do The Artist’s Way if you don’t want your entire life to change. So I’m halfway through law school doing The Artist’s Way, and it keeps saying, you know, what would you do if money was no object? What would you do if, um, you know, what’s easiest and what makes your heart sing and all of those things. And I kept saying, you know, I would be a writer, I’d be a writer. And I guess until that point, I didn’t realize two things. One is that not everyone’s a writer. Like, people are literate, and then there’s writers, like people who have to write and have to get it on the page. And I realized that I was that person. And that it was a viable profession. And so I did finish law school, but I already knew that I was going to head to Los Angeles and be a screenwriter. So I did just that. I started working as a receptionist so that I could write, you know, all day long. Was a good receptionist, even though a few people would be like, hmm, “Um, you’re a little smart.” Or they’d be like, “Um, I’ve seen your Howard Law plate.” Yes. “Um, on your car.” And I’d be like, “Shh! Don’t tell anyone.” Yes. Um, but I managed to write my first screenplay.
Fanshen Cox [00:05:28]:
And did you—did you— you decided to go that route so that you could really focus on the writing, right? I think sometimes we do. We take jobs that pay the bills and, you know, we can be good at, but that allows for the creative time and energy to do the thing that we want to be doing.
Kai Bowe [00:05:46]:
Exactly. And I think it's really important important. I didn't— to me it made perfect sense. Was it humbling? Sometimes, yes. Or not even humbling, where I would be like, look, I'm the smartest person in here.
Fanshen Cox [00:06:00]:
Like, I don’t need to be making you coffee, just take the coffee and drink it.
Kai Bowe [00:06:02]:
But actually, the funny thing that I always talk about is I had a temp agent, uh, Louise Tomaguchi, who did, um, entertainment placement. So that was also part of the strategy of me getting into at least, you know, networks and entertainment companies. And I would be quiet about who I was because I was like, this is serving my purpose. I just want to write all day long. She, on the other hand, is very feisty. And so if anyone ever complained, she'd be like, she's got a fucking law degree. And I was like, Louise, you can't keep saying this.
Fanshen Cox [00:06:36]:
Listen, it's nice to have someone. Ok ok.
Kai Bowe [00:06:38]:
So she was actually one of my biggest fans. And to this day, But I managed to finish a screenplay. And as I started entering it into competitions and sending it to various producers, it actually got really good traction. And so it was a great affirmation for me of, "Okay, I'm not delusional. I have talent in this area." And what I say, you know, what I have to say, um, is having an impact. But it got the attention of two people, and I feel like both of those people were pivotal in lessons and also in affirmation. One was Jim Stern, part owner of the Chicago Bulls, who at the time— you know, obviously, the Chicago Bulls will always be the Chicago Bulls. But at that time, it was Jordan. It was Pippen. So he was interested and wanted to option my screenplay. So that was huge. And then the second thing was John Salley, NBA player. Also, like, read it during Thanksgiving. And called me and was like, I totally want to produce this. Now, again, affirmation, but also biggest lesson. Because once I had a few people saying they were interested, I got a little cocky. And I think it was my first—
Fanshen Cox [00:08:08]:
And you were like, you can pay me $1 million for this.
Kai Bowe [00:08:11]:
Right. Whereas now it's like, people are like, just be happy. No one's even paying for an option. So I decided that I did not want the option with Jim Stern and that I was going places.
Fanshen Cox [00:08:26]:
Oh, I've been there. Yes, yes, yes.
Kai Bowe [00:08:29]:
And so needless to say, we have not seen that movie. And the biggest lesson I got from it is, first of all, like, slow down. Probably have good mentorship that helps you make those type of complex decisions so you're not just kind of wilding out. I think the other biggest lesson is you have to do inner work to let success in. Because we all think that we want to succeed, but success is something that is a learned practice. And there are things that we do that sabotage it, that, you know, We should go right, we end up going left. And while it's part of the life lessons, I do believe that if we don't learn how to truly, like, make peace with joy and success, we will keep doing things that sabotage. So that was, you know, the lesson that I take. And who knows, is it the best thing for you to sell your very first screenplay? I don't know. It could have been.
Fanshen Cox [00:09:44]:
Right. We gonna find out when you— when you do sell it. We're going to decide, should she have sold it back then or is this the right timing? You know, I believe in marinating too. I believe like, and the world has to come around. It has to be in the zeitgeist. Like, there's so many factors, I think, to success, to your point. So, okay. All right. So you're doing this inner work like you, you know, you're learning these hard lessons. And then you end up at OWN. Like, I mean, speaking of a Black woman role model for the podcast, for sure, you end up on that network, in unscripted at that, because you had so much focus on screenwriting. So how did that happen?
Kai Bowe [00:10:27]:
So I started— as I was writing, reality television and unscripted started really, really taking off. And no one— there were the naysayers, a ton of them, especially people in unscripted . No one could have imagined where unscripted would go. However, I really felt like I had a gut instinct about it. And one of the things that happened, I have a very, like, Pan-African hippie, like, alternative family on the whole. A lot of our closest—
Fanshen Cox [00:11:02]:
Yeah, that's why I love you.
Kai Bowe [00:11:03]:
Exactly. Our closest relatives. And we were at a family gathering that was in Arizona. We're all just in nature, and my cousins were debating about Survivor. And I was like, wait a minute, if my family is talking about reality TV like this, is something. Yeah. So I started looking at inroads to reality TV. I had a few connections. We all know that makes a big, big difference. But I also had connections because they had worked with me, whether it was for free or they were friends who could vouch for me. And I ended up, you know, starting to work at— in casting in unscripted. Long story short, I worked— I next went to story producing, which was the closest thing to writing. And to my surprise, I was like, this actually is almost as fulfilling, if not more so, than writing.
Mastering Unscripted: Story Producing, Showrunning & Creative Power
Fanshen Cox [00:12:08]:
Talk to us about what a story producer does.
Kai Bowe [00:12:10]:]
So a story producer in unscripted, and especially in reality TV, is really pivotal because about 200 or 300 hours of footage for an episode is dumped into that person's lap. You know, back then it was literally VHS tapes where we'd be like watching, you know, and then it became— it was like old school. So we're giving all this footage, and we have to narrow it down to about, you know, 42, 43 minutes. And so it's very, very creative. You know, back in the day, people thought, you know, reality just is what it is. It's like, the fact is, people are boring. People are imperfect when you don't want them to be. They're perfect when you don't want— you know. So it really takes a lot of massaging in addition to interviews to make, you know, America's Next Top Model nail-biting. So I learned from the best of the best. At America's Next Top Model and was in charge of the premiere episode, which really helped.
Fanshen Cox [00:13:19]:
Amazing. Oh my goodness. Yes
Kai Bowe [00:13:19]:
Myself and my partner, my story producing partner at the time. And that helped me learn branding characters because we would brand the characters. This is the—
Fanshen Cox [00:13:32]:
Brand the individual, like you? Ahh.
Kai Bowe [00:13:33]:
Right. So we'd have a master board and it was like, The girl who always cries, the conceited girl, the this girl. And so we would set the tone for the series, and then other story producers would build on that brand. Which makes, as we know, like in scripted, we know, like, rule of 3 and things like that. So if we know she always cries, then we're waiting, you know, she's got a photo shoot with spiders. What's she gonna do? We're waiting for her to cry.
Fanshen Cox [00:14:00]:
Yes. Yes.
Kai Bowe [00:14:02]:
So I learned so much from being a story producer that really informed my writing, but I also could use, you know, just story concept and structure for that. Made my way through the ranks and became a showrunner in unscripted.
Fanshen Cox [00:14:20]:
What? I don't think I knew that.
Kai Bowe [00:14:22]:
Yes!
Fanshen Cox [00:14:23]:
Kai what! What did you— What show was it?
Kai Bowe [00:14:27]:
So there were so many by that point. I mean, you just named so many shows.
Fanshen Cox [00:14:30]:
Oh my gosh. I'm so— so you were the showrunner on these. And I'm sorry, I did not put it in my head. What a badass you are. I'm like, what? These are your shows.
Kai Bowe [00:14:45]:
I guess so. I mean, we don't call it that in this same—
Fanshen Cox [00:14:47]:
Yeah. Uh-uh there's no imposter syndrome here. No, no, no. Not I guess so.
Kai Bowe [00:14:50]:
And I really don't have imposter syndrome, but I would I would say because unscripted is so collaborative. Yes, the showrunner is 100% in charge of everything and to blame for everything and working the hardest. So for sure, I know the imprint that I had. I do think it's a little different than, like the director or the Shonda Rhimes, et cetera. But I will say, yes. Yes, absolutely. I'll take it.
From Burnout to Breakthrough: How Pause, COVID & Clarity Led to OWN
Fanshen Cox [00:15:20]:
You do all of that. That's—these are yours. They're yours.
Kai Bowe [00:15:25]:
And, and obviously on my journey to being a showrunner and as a showrunner, I started really appreciating that I am really great at this.
Fanshen Cox [00:15:36]:
Yes.
Kai Bowe [00:15:37]:
And that I know how to see all these different component parts and put all of these people together and bring the best out of all of them and see it through over 9 months or 12 months. to get to this finished product. And so that, again, was so important to see myself in all of those stages and under all of those, you know, sometimes difficult situations as an interviewer, see how I could really bring out the best in people. So that led me to being, really quite established as an documentarian. And I knew that I was working so hard. It's like, I would get in trouble sometimes because they'd be like, you can't keep the editors till 3 in the morning when you have a cut going to network. I also hired people who were right there with me. And we were like, We're gonna make this perfect. Then the network would be happy. But I knew logically, like, this isn't sustainable to work for this amount of time and this intensely. I had been doing it in some way since I was 16, you know, like 14-hour days. But I was really happy, and I was at the point where even before I would finish a project, you know, my agent had like another 1 or 2 offers. So I was very grateful. But then— COVID happened. Then George Floyd and all of the political unrest happened. And networks, I'm assuming, started looking and looking around and saying, "We don't have a lot of African Americans in our ranks," which was very, very true. And we know it's still very true. And I'm at home. I actually, you know, during this very trying period, it was the first time I had ever just not had to do any work. So even though it was, you know—
Fanshen Cox [00:17:55]:
Yeah. How was that? Did you—were you like, I need to be working, or were you able to kind of take a breather and enjoy it and relax into it?
Kai Bowe [00:18:05]:
Well, Obviously, all of us had the intense emotional pressure and journey of what the entire world was going through. But I do know that different people had different experiences. So without being callous at all in terms of, you know, there was real, real suffering. I had, you know, people who lost parents during that time, et cetera. For me personally, It was actually an amazing time period, partially, like I said, because it was the first time where I couldn't work and I really couldn't work. So it wasn't like, oh, you should be— it was like, no, you can't work. So you can just enjoy. So I really, really did. And I'm thankful, you know, I had an S corp, I had an SBA loan, you know, I was like, wait, are they just putting all this money in my account? Like, I was like, are they really going to do this? And then I was like, oh my God, it landed. Plus unemployment. And I was already a happy, healthy person. And so I did make the most of that and really just took a moment to kind of center and do some internal work and have some fun that I hadn't been able to have for, you know, as a showrunner. But during that period, networks started reaching out to me. And in Hollywood, first of all, it's rare that anyone's reaching out to you. Usually, your agent or someone— you know you're pounding the pavement. And it's like—
Fanshen Cox [00:19:44]:
They're coming to you.
Kai Bowe [00:19:45]:
Right. Network after network after network. The first one— and I won't mention any names because who knows, I may want to double back one day. But the first one, very prestigious. But I could tell she was just like stressed and she was like, it's COVID. She's in her house in the Hamptons and just stressed. And I was like, no, ma'am.
Fanshen Cox [00:20:11]:
Good for you.
Kai Bowe [00:20:11]:
I am not interested in being your piece.
Fanshen Cox [00:20:14]:
Yes.
Kai Bowe [00:20:16]:
And so even though it's a network that I really, you know, hold in high regard, I was like, this is not for me, but interesting, you know? And I'm like, wow, this is really interesting that they came to me. Second network, I was like, oh, for sure, I would definitely work for these people. Let's go through the process.
Fanshen Cox [00:20:35]:
Yeah.
Kai Bowe [00:20:36]:
About halfway through, and I love them and they love me, they decide they were going to actually hire for a position lower than me and they weren't going to hire for my position.
Fanshen Cox [00:20:46]:
Okay.
Kai Bowe [00:20:47]:
So I was like, okay. Happy that I was considered. Moving on. I still have my whole showrunner life. And then the third was the Oprah Winfrey Network. So I was like, this is very interesting. Like you, like all of us, I had grown up with Ms. Winfrey. Really, I would say holding her probably in the highest regard of just about anyone on the planet? Like, like, really? And so I was like, this is obviously a fit in terms of my spirituality, what is important to me, what resonates with my heart. But I also still didn't know, like, is— I don't know anything about being a network executive. Is this right for me? So I was kind of halfway but doing it in terms of the interview process. And they were throwing me, you know, they were putting me through for good reason. Just, you know, interview after interview and do notes on this and do notes on this.
Fanshen Cox [00:21:59]:
Oh, wow.
Kai Bowe [00:22:00]:
At the time, I actually had started working again.
Fanshen Cox [00:22:02]:
I would love to dig into that further. Sure. So that, so that people could be prepared if this is something they want to do. So you talked about this long interview process and then giving notes. So was it that they were giving you content and they wanted to see how you would put that story together, or—
Kai Bowe [00:22:20]:
So they— because it was unscripted, they were giving me past episodes of their own shows. Or episodes that hadn't aired and asking me to do notes, which is what my job would be.
Fanshen Cox [00:22:35]:
Right. Right.
Kai Bowe [00:22:36]:
So I'm doing notes and notes. And obviously, they're looking at them and comparing them to their own notes and what they would have done.
Fanshen Cox [00:22:45]:
Right. Right.
Kai Bowe [00:22:47]:
So that was part of the process. I was also interviewing with various people who were involved in the network. And I remember starting to get very overwhelmed. And I think for all of us, it's a familiar feeling where you're like, you want something really bad. You're nervous about it. But at the same time, part of you wants to be like, this is too much. Maybe I just won't. Maybe this isn't for me. You know, that. Kind of feeling. And it started coming up. And I don't remember if I said it. I think I said it to the main person who was considering me, which is Robin Lattiker Johnson. And she was the EVP at the time of unscripted . And I remember telling her, like, you know, I'm showrunning right now. I was doing this amazing— project with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. And I was like, I just am getting overwhelmed with all these notes. And she's like, do you need some more time? And I said, yeah, I really do need some more time. And she's like, you got it.
Fanshen Cox [00:24:00]:
And you were like, okay, I'll take this job and be a pitchwoman, right? She offered for you to take some time.
Kai Bowe [00:24:03]:
And the thing is yeah, and I asked for it too, instead of sabotaging or just burning myself out or whatever. And so something kind of clicked in me and I was like, you, you know, you better do this. And so I did everything to the best of my ability. And at that point I said, if they offer this to me, this feels right and I'm going to take it. And they did. So I started my journey, you know, a couple of months later.
Fanshen Cox [00:24:43]:
And how long have you been there now?
Kai Bowe [00:24:46]:
I am going— I always have to ask my boss, but I am going into my 5th year, which it's gone really, really fast, which is always a good sign.Yeah.
Fanshen Cox [00:24:58]:
Amazing. Okay. So, so now, I mean, this is so helpful. First of all, it really clicked for me that part of— I think part of why you built all this strength around documentary storytelling was because you had the experience of being on sets when you were in your teen years and those sets in particular. But a lot of people, like screenwriters, think more in front of the camera. They think of the story unfolding. They're not necessarily thinking about all the inner workings of how that story gets told. I think that exposure for— I mean, this is just I'm wondering if that exposure for you is part of what planted seeds. And then you knew how to tell a good story because you became a screenwriter. But to have that as well as to understand how production works, it's just making sense to me how you are so successful at what you do.
Join Us on Patreon
Fanshen Cox [00:25:57]:
If you are enjoying this episode of Sista Brunch, you have got to join the whole community. And we are over here, all these conversations we have on Sista Brunch, you will be able to do this with us weekly, even daily on Patreon. So you can find us at patreon.com/sistabrunch. You can join us for free. I mean, if you've got funds, we appreciate that too. You can have a monthly membership or join us for free. You're going to get behind the scenes. You're going to get some sneak peeks at episodes. We've got merch. We've got conversations going on over there that you can't see us having publicly. Really, this is our place to really talk about all the things that we talked about at those original Sista Brunches in person. We are doing over on our Patreon. So join us there!
Kai Bowe [00:26:42]:
Hi, I'm Kai Bowe, and you're watching the Sister Brunch Podcast.
Let’s Talk Finance
Fanshen Cox [00:26:48]:
And our next segment is on financials. And you've had these different experiences, but especially you've had the experiences of kind of being your own boss, really. And, you know, even though you had an agent who would set you up, but then you, you know, when you're a showrunner, you're kind of making the decisions. Versus now working at a studio. So what financially— we can talk about budgets if you want, or your salary, whatever you're comfortable with, because we really want our listeners to understand what ranges there are out there for these jobs.
Kai Bowe [00:27:23]:
Right, I'll say a little bit first, being a freelancer, that's a whole journey.
Fanshen Cox [00:27:30]:
Yeah.
Kai Bowe [00:27:31]:
Because the money is good when it's good, and then it's nonexistent. Then it's like unemployment, and then it's good. And so part of the lesson there, again, and not like, oh, I'm so deep, but I'm a little deep. Part of the lesson that I taught myself is I am not going to be someone who is like, yay, we're in the money, and feeling all great. And then when, you know, I'm on which I would call it hiatus, even though we do not have hiatus.
Fanshen Cox [00:28:03]:
Uh-huh. You're just working non-stop.
Kai Bowe [00:28:06]:
You know in unscripted. But I would say when I'm on hiatus, I have possibly 3 or 4 months where I'm not working. I could either stress and nail bite for 3 or 4 months and then get the job like I always do, or I can start looking at this as I'm one of the few people who has a roof over my head and food on the table. However, I have 6 months of the year off. Who has that? And I also knew this will not be for, you know, if everything works out well, this will not be for very long. And so I told myself, I'm going to enjoy this. Like, I'm going to treat this like, oh, I'm lucky enough to get vacation for 3 or 4 months. And I would do my spiritual work. I would reconnect with friends. I'd have, you know, I'd really do all the things that we cannot do when we're working constantly. And it would also fortify me for that interview process and for the next job. So that was really important way for me to look at not having money because that's what really was going on. But I was like, oh, I'm getting paid by unemployment to relax and fortify myself and feel good about myself before the next one.
Fanshen Cox [00:29:28]:
Yes. So we just have to reiterate this, right? Like, when you have time off, whether it's like an official hiatus or whether it's you have to go into unemployment because you're freelancing, but do take some of that time for yourself, right? Like, for— you talked about your spirituality, your, you know, physical, all of the things you can do. You really do need to take advantage of that time. Okay, okay, okay
Kai Bowe [00:29:57]:
So then financially, I'll talk about the two different things, um, show running and unscripted. A lot of people don't know that it actually pays well.
Fanshen Cox [00:30:10]:
Really?
Kai Bowe [00:30:11]:
Now, it is not like Hollywood actor money. It's not, you know what I mean? It's not Hollywood director money.
Fanshen Cox [00:30:17]:
Right.
Kai Bowe [00:30:17]:
Let's be real. It is also doesn't have a union. So that is different. However, I think sometimes people are surprised by, you know, the rate. So now I would say showrunners are making like rock bottom $5,000 a week. Um, but up to 7 or so, you're good.
Fanshen Cox [00:30:42]:
When you're good, right? And they want— and you can— and you get to a place where you can negotiate, that's where you can go. Love it.
Kai Bowe [00:30:48]:
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, added, if you have your S corp, you run it through your S corp. Yeah. And you have natural expenses, and you probably can pay a lot less taxes than someone who is a full-time employee.
Fanshen Cox [00:31:06]:
Yes.
Kai Bowe [00:31:08]:
So the rates are decent. And I think even more than that with unscripted, which I always encourage people who are pursuing scripted to actually go into unscripted because there's jobs.
Fanshen Cox [00:31:21]:
Okay.
Kai Bowe [00:31:22]:
It's not one in a million like it is with scripted.
Fanshen Cox [00:31:25]:
Yes.
Kai Bowe [00:31:26]:
And we learn. So we're constantly working, which means that we tend to know more.
Fanshen Cox [00:31:32]:
Yep.
Kai Bowe [00:31:32]:
Then people who think they're a director but are not directing, think they're a writer but are not writing. All of these things, you know, like—
Fanshen Cox [00:31:40]:
Let me see. I'm signing up. I'm like, let's go. But, and so how would somebody go about if they— if somebody, you know, if a listener is like, I want to go into unscripted, what would you recommend? And I know we didn't even finish our financials question, but I'm like, now I really want to know that too.
Kai Bowe [00:31:57]:
So, I think like anywhere else, you have to start at the lowest level that you're qualified for. So that may be a PA, that may be an associate producer. Okay. It may be a story producer. Because I had some experience and because I was a writer, I was able to start as a story producer.
Fanshen Cox [00:32:16]:
Yes.
Kai Bowe [00:32:17]:
And then it's just kind of going up the ranks. Okay. So the same goes for the field. There are, you know, PA, AP, and then field producer. What I didn't know then in the field, I'm like, oh wait, I'm directing. I don't even want to direct, but suddenly I'm in charge of an entire set.
Fanshen Cox [00:32:35]:
Yes.
Kai Bowe [00:32:37]:
And so the same thing for the producing where you're like, oh my goodness, this is, as you said, like, this is my production.
Fanshen Cox [00:32:43]:
Yes.
Kai Bowe [00:32:44]:
So good, potentially steady work.
Fanshen Cox [00:32:50]:
Right.
Kai Bowe [00:32:50]:
And a lot of learning and a lot of interaction with the top production companies and networks. And that just doesn't happen in scripted a lot of times. It just doesn't, or it's very few and far between. Network, the tax bracket is different. I still have not gotten over that. I'm like, wait a minute, I'm in this 40% tax bracket. Um, so I'll say the general range, I'm in the, at the director level. Hopefully soon to be a VP. But the range is about $175,000 to $250,000 depending where you are.
Fanshen Cox [00:33:33]:
Amazing.
Kai Bowe [00:33:35]:
Plus bonuses, plus, you know. And then at a VP level, depending where you are, could be sort of $250,000, $350,000 or so. You know, benefits, all of the things, stock options, etc.
Fanshen Cox [00:33:52]:
Yes.
Kai Bowe [00:33:53]:
Also better hours. So there are pluses and minuses. Obviously there's, there's times to be a freelancer and to be really in it. And then there's times, you know, that people decide that being corporate and being in a network is—
Fanshen Cox [00:34:12]:
There's some stability there.
Kai Bowe [00:34:16]:
Potentially with our industry right now.
Fanshen Cox [00:34:20]:
I mean, it's so true. That's a really good point. I think either way, you're constantly a little bit worried, but maybe the relationships you develop— It's really an interesting choice. And I think this is coming up as a theme this season a lot, is that freelancer life versus working at a studio. And— And it really is. It's not really clear which one is better for anyone. I think it kind of determines on you and where you are in life. And, okay, let's go to our— so thank you for these financials. And, and listen, for real, sign me up because I'm like, I've always wanted to know that about unscripted.
Let’s Talk Tech
Fanshen Cox [00:35:03]:
So our Let's Talk Tech question. What is a, you know, a piece of technology, verbiage, etc., that someone who doesn't do your job would not know if you said that to them.
Kai Bowe [00:35:16]:
It took me 2 days. Literally, I was just getting out of the shower this morning and I was like, I got it. And again, I was going to call my boss, Drew Tappan, and be like, okay, what do I say for this thing? But it's actually the perfect thing. So we have in Unscripted a term called Frankenbite. And it's based on the fact that You know, as people are watching, it looks very seamless. We're going from vérité, which is shot footage, to B-roll, which is, again, shot footage with no sound, just images, to interview bites. And it looks like this great dance, and it should. But what's really happening is a whole bunch of stuff. So we're trying to get lines out. And a lot of times, you know, we may do 3 key interviews of someone. And then we want this part of the line and this part of the line from the third one where they have a different outfit and all of— you know, we're putting it together. And it seems like one complete thought. If you're being ethical, you're staying within the sort of— you know, you're being true to who that person is. You're not just totally making them say things they wouldn't say. If you're being unethical, we know, There's a lot of power there. But what can sometimes happen is you have this part of a bite and then you're putting one or two, you know, other parts of the bites together. And as a network executive or as a showrunner, I'm listening and it's like, I was going to the, you know, and we make a note. This sounds like a Frankenbite. So it just means parts of bites that are put together and they're not smoothed out enough or they don't fit well enough. And so it sounds like they were constructed, which they were, like, like, like Frankenstein.
Fanshen Cox [00:37:17]:
Like Frankenstein. Frankenbite.
Kai Bowe [00:37:19]:
And so they either have to be, you know, massaged in the edit or online. Sometimes we have to say, "Please call the talent, get that whole line from them, have them send it back." And they put it in, or they choose something else. So that's a really—
Fanshen Cox [00:37:39]:
Frankenbite, ok.
Kai Bowe [00:37:40]:
That's an insider term that we all know.
Fanshen Cox [00:37:43]:
Thank you.
Kai Bowe [00:37:44]:
And use.
Fanshen Cox [00:37:44]:
Thank you.Yeah. And I'm glad you also talked a little bit about ethical storytelling in unscripted. And I think that's I think especially kind of in the documentary world, there's a lot of conversation around how you treat your subjects or should the subjects be the ones that are telling the story, right? And so how do you reconcile that for yourself in unscripted? And do you ever— are you in a position ever where you feel like you had to manipulate the story or a character and it wasn't really there? And what do you— how do you do that?
Kai Bowe [00:38:26]:
I don't feel like I— because I was in the position, either as a story producer, as a supervising producer, or as a showrunner, to make decisions about what was coming out of someone's mouth.
Fanshen Cox [00:38:43]:
Yes.
Kai Bowe [00:38:44]:
I never compromised myself. And anyone who knows me, it's just like, I'm just not going to do it.
Fanshen Cox [00:38:50]:
Yeah, we know you and your family. We know. We know that.
Kai Bowe [00:38:53]:
She's not going to do it. But it's also not necessary. I don't even remember a time where someone's like, make them say. So I was also working for people who it's like, there's enough there that we can express artistically what needs to be expressed. And there isn't any rule or promise to people that, you know, in these 3 interviews, I'm going to line everything up. No, this is a movie. You know, this is a documentary. And I'm going to use whatever soundbites are needed for that moment. So there's already all the freedom in the world. You just don't want to, you know, augment someone's sentence to the point where it's in direct contradiction to what they would have said or what they believe.
The Signature Sister Brunch Question
Fanshen Cox [00:39:39]:
Yeah. Amazing. Okay, so we are coming to the end of this episode. And, and I have learned so much really already. And, and this one has taken you back to when you were younger. So, so, Kai, you and your younger self are sitting down to a Sista Brunch. What are you both eating? What are you both drinking? And then what do you tell her?
Kai Bowe [00:40:05]:
So I thought about this one too. And I was like, my favorite brunch, I actually make it. Yes.
Fanshen Cox [00:40:17]:
So what time should we come over?
Kai Bowe [00:40:19]:
I know, so my favorite— I'm actually known for my brunch. I'm not reliable. I'm not— I'm not the woman who, like, every night your dinner's on the table. It's like, come on now. You can either have an executive for, you know, or you can have someone who's cooking all day. Yes. That being said, I love Gouda grits.
Fanshen Cox [00:40:42]:
Ooh.
Kai Bowe [00:40:43]:
Gouda grits.
Fanshen Cox [00:40:44]:
Oh, that's on another level.
Kai Bowe [00:40:46]:
You gotta have aged Gouda. Not—
Fanshen Cox [00:40:49]:
Ooh.
Kai Bowe [00:40:49]:
Not—
Fanshen Cox [00:40:50]:
Yes. Aged Gouda. Listen, I have to say, you are our first guest this season to talk about grits, which is lovely to hear.
Kai Bowe [00:40:56]:
I don't even want to hear about any sugar. Come on now. Like, we're not even— we're not even talking about that. So beyond this, and I always tell people, I'm like, my grits, like, you'll be looking at your grandmother like, ooh, what is she doing? What is she doing all these years?
Fanshen Cox [00:41:11]:
Ooh. So, okay.
Kai Bowe [00:41:12]:
Gouda grits.
Fanshen Cox [00:41:14]:
Wow, a challenge. Challenge is out there of the gouda grits. Okay. Okay.
Kai Bowe [00:41:19]:
I also, I cook a lot of vegetarian and vegan food, even though I'm a pescatarian.
Fanshen Cox [00:41:25]:
Oh, wow.
Kai Bowe [00:41:25]:
So I'm very Cali, very Northern California. So vegan scrambled eggs, which is Just Egg. If anyone's not— I love just eggs. But you have to treat it like eggs. A little like red onion. Yeah, I do it with butter still because I'm not a vegan. So vegan eggs, vegan bacon. This again, I'm putting—
Fanshen Cox [00:41:52]:
Where do you get your— I need to know where you get your vegan bacon.
Kai Bowe [00:41:54]:
Maciel’s, It's a Michelin-star deli in Los Angeles.
Fanshen Cox [00:41:59]:
What?
Kai Bowe [00:41:59]:
How do delis even get a Michelin star? So they make the only vegan bacon that I would ever eat.
Fanshen Cox [00:42:05]:
Okay. Maciel’s. We'll be going there.
Kai Bowe [00:42:08]:
Maciel’s, for sure. Yes. So vegan bacon. And then I make cinnamon swirl French toast with— and I dip it in this again, very Cali, but I dip it in a little hemp milk. But I put a little bourbon vanilla.
Fanshen Cox [00:42:25]:
Oh my goodness.
Kai Bowe [00:42:27]:
Lots of butter. And then I do a little— I'm like, I'm getting hungry. This is— I do a little nut butter, like, on top of it.
Fanshen Cox [00:42:39]:
Okay.
Kai Bowe [00:42:39]:
Like some almond butter, like, melted with a little agave. Yes. So, yeah. So that's—
Fanshen Cox [00:42:48]:
I just need to point out, we'll say this at the end, but we're at YouPodcaster Studios in Hollywood, which which is this incredible Black-owned studio in Hollywood. They have a kitchen, and Sista Brunch next season gonna be doing— it's gonna be a cooking show.
Kai Bowe [00:43:03]:
I love it.
Fanshen Cox [00:43:04]:
Promise us you will be our first guest, and we will make that a—
Kai Bowe [00:43:09]:
I will do that.
Fanshen Cox [00:43:10]:
—a go. Okay, Sam—yes, Charlie. We are going to make that full Gouda grits. We got the French toast.
Kai Bowe [00:43:18]:
Cinnamon swirl French toast.
Fanshen Cox [00:43:20]:
Cinnamon swirl French toast. I'm so— okay. Okay. What are we drinking?
Kai Bowe [00:43:24]:
Um, I do love a mimosa.
Fanshen Cox [00:43:27]:
Okay.
Kai Bowe [00:43:27]:
Fresh-squeezed orange juice. I do love a good mimosa. Nice.
Fanshen Cox [00:43:32]:
Nice.
Kai Bowe [00:43:32]:
Yes. Okay.
Fanshen Cox [00:43:34]:
Okay. And then what do you tell her?
Kai Bowe [00:43:37]:
Um, how old is she?
Fanshen Cox [00:43:40]:
Um, I mean, it's up to you. Sometimes I make them drinking age so that they could drink the mimosas with you. But she could be— it really is whoever you— who did you need to talk to? Who needed to hear from you?
Kai Bowe [00:43:53]:
You know, it reminds me now, I have a niece who's 30, who I've been very close to throughout her life, but really from 20 to 30. And that period, I feel like it is almost lied about, like in movies, it's like glorified, like, oh, the '20s. And it's really your entire childhood coming up for, like, reexamination and your entire self and all of your issues. Like, finally you're not in school and all your stuff, your parents, everything. And so I really pay attention to people in that age range, my, my two nieces and other people, because I feel like that's the time that's very misunderstood. And people are saying, like, this is the best time of your life. And it's like, I'm like, "No, it's not. It will lead to your adulthood and maybe the best time of your life, but you have to process for 10 years to get there." So I would definitely talk to my sort of 20-year-old going through that Saturn return for the astrologically sound people. Yeah, I would really tell her First of all, do the work. Because, and if you do, if you don't know astrology, look up the term Saturn return, which starts about 28. But I would say do the work. Do not, like, don't avoid it. Have fun, but be as sober. When you're not partying, be sober. Like, don't try to cruise through this period where all of your emotions are coming up.
Fanshen Cox [00:45:38]:
Be there, be aware of it.
Kai Bowe [00:45:39]:
Be there. Feel the feelings, cry, you know, process, try to figure it out. Do therapy if you are able to, so important. And just go through it and trust and know that if you do that work, you will become an adult around 30. And your entire life will, you know, the next 28-year cycle will be so different and potentially so powerful because you did that work. And to trust, you know, as you're going through it, like, trust that, like, just do it and trust that on the other side of it is a lot of joy and power and knowledge of self.
Fanshen Cox [00:46:32]:
Thank you so much, Kai. I'm so glad that you could join us. I'm so glad to know who you are because your sister loves you so much and said that you have to be on, and you really have come and taught us and inspired us. We're so grateful to you.
Kai Bowe [00:46:49]:
Thank you. And I really appreciate everything that you all are doing. I've watched throughout the years and just seeing you take the next step and the next step and the next And it's very inspirational as well.
Closing & Partnerships
Fanshen Cox [00:47:04]:
Sista Brunch is brought to you by Tru Julo Productions. Our show creators are Anya Adams, Christabel Nsiobuadi, and me, Fanshen Cox. Our season 7 producers are Tasha Rogers and Samantha Kay Henderson. Our associate producers are Charlie T. Savage and Ashanti Groves. Sista Brunch is recorded on the unceded territory of the Tongva and the Chumash people in Hollywood, this time at YouPodcaster Studios. Thank you so much for listening and watching and sharing and subscribing and reviewing us on Apple and Spotify. We're so grateful for all you do for our community, and we're grateful for you for being part of our community. Thank you so much, and we'll talk to you next time.