Aaliyah Williams on Black Barbie, Producing by Trial and Fire, and Using Legal Knowledge to Protect the Work
Guest: Aaliyah Williams
Titles: Producer; director; executive producer; founder of Just a Rebel
Episode Theme: How curiosity, hustle, and legal knowledge can help a producer build meaningful work, protect creative vision, and get projects across the finish line.
Why this matters right now: More creatives are being asked to wear multiple hats while navigating an industry that still makes access, ownership, and fair compensation harder than it should be. In this episode, Aaliyah Williams breaks down how she built her career by learning on the job, why relationships matter at every level, and how understanding the business and legal side of storytelling can change everything.
In this episode, she reflects on leaving finance to pursue storytelling, learning producing through hands-on experience, and building a career by saying yes to opportunities that stretched her. She shares the behind-the-scenes journey of producing the acclaimed Netflix documentary Black Barbie, from the personal story that drew her into the budget challenges, partnerships, and negotiations that helped bring the film to the screen. Aaliyah also talks about going to law school while finishing the film, how learning about fair use strengthened her as a producer, and why Black women filmmakers must fight to be paid for their labor. It is a sharp, inspiring conversation about storytelling, ownership, and betting on yourself.
What we talk about
Learning to produce through her first short film and early hustle in Los Angeles (00:03:57)
How Black Barbie came together and why the story hit home personally (00:13:30)
Making a documentary work on a budget under one million dollars (00:19:31)
Negotiating the Netflix deal and fighting for Black women filmmakers to be compensated fairly (00:26:35)
How law school and fair use reshaped the way she approaches producing and rights (00:31:47)
Why you’ll want to listen
A real look at building a career without a traditional film school path (00:07:05)
What it actually takes to produce a documentary from funding to finish line (00:19:31)
Why legal knowledge is a power move for creatives and producers (00:31:47)
A practical reminder that relationships can open doors years later (00:11:32)
“It is okay to want a different life.” (00:38:11)
About the guest
Aaliyah Williams is a producer, director, and creative entrepreneur whose career bridges independent film, digital media, and documentary storytelling. After starting in finance and realizing that world was not for her, she moved to Los Angeles and built her path by learning through experience, producing shorts, digital series, and studio-backed projects while working across the industry. Her producing credits include the acclaimed Netflix documentary Black Barbie, and her work has consistently centered strong storytelling, Black cultural history, and meaningful creative collaboration. Aaliyah is also the founder of Just a Rebel and has expanded her expertise through legal studies, using that knowledge to better navigate rights, negotiations, and creative protection. Across her work, she brings strategy, rigor, and heart to every stage of the process.
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Keywords: Aaliyah Williams, Sista Brunch Podcast, Just a Rebel, Black Barbie, Netflix documentary, Black women producers, documentary filmmaking, fair use, legal studies for creatives, producing documentary films, women in entertainment, Black women in media, film producing, independent film, digital media, entertainment law, intellectual property, producer career, directing documentaries, Shondaland
Introduction
Fanshen Cox [00:00:00]:Welcome back to season 7 of the Sista Brunch podcast. Every time I say it, I'm like, it's true. We are seven seasons in. I cannot believe it.
Aaliyah Williams [00:00:08]: Amazing. Congratulations.
Fanshen Cox [00:00:10]: Thank you.
Aaliyah Williams [00:00:11]: And seven is a beautiful number. Seven is a divine number
Fanshen Cox [00:00:15]:Right, it is a divine number. And here you are like, I feel like this is. I was thinking about it, like almost 20 years. It's not quite 20 years in the making, but about that. Oh my goodness. So this season we have leveled up in every possible way. We have incredible guests at this beautiful studio in Hollywood, Black-owned studio. Two adorable twins who we just got one to make a little cameo. So watch to the end of the season so that you can see one of the brothers that owns this studio in Hollywood. It's called YouPodcaster. And here we are with another incredible guest. So first of all, we'll just start with the Emmy Award-winning. And I can't wait to just talk about your journey getting to that Emmy and how many there will be in the future. So Aaliyah is the founder of the production company Just a Rebel. Aaliyah's work includes the acclaimed Netflix documentary Black Barbie. If you haven't seen it, do so right after you watch this entire episode. And I am so incredibly proud to welcome today's guest, Ms. Aaliyah Williams. Welcome.
Aaliyah Williams [00:01:25]: Thank you. Thank you so much. So happy to be here.
Fanshen Cox [00:01:29]: We're gonna just get into it because, yes, all of those things, you have legends in this, you have our auntie Maxine Waters sharing her stories around Barbie. I also learned about the toy company in South Central Los Angeles. Yes. We learned so much from that. So let's take it back. Also, I'll just say I'm so proud to have you here because I knew you. We met on, I think, one of the first short films that you were—
Aaliyah’s Journey: From Finance to Breaking into Film
Aaliyah Williams [00:02:01]: It was the first short film. So I'll give the full context. Fanshen has been that girl and has always been around supporting creatives, being a creative. And you know, when you're in these streets, you start seeing the same people. And just seeing you consistently has always made my heart smile. And we met in 2008, probably. So I first moved to LA in 2006. I was in New York. I had been working in finance. I went to Harvard undergrad. Thought I was going to be a doctor, you know, that whole thing. And as I was in finance with all these people doing well, I just knew that it wasn't for me. And I was spending more time reading scripts, and I was like, okay, I should probably figure this out. So I came out to LA. I was fortunate to have friends from college that were in different grad programs, one of them being Julian Breece, who was in the Peter Stark program but is an incredible writer. And, you know, he's written things like Rustin and he's created shows. He's done amazing things. But it all started. I was an assistant for Effie Brown, an independent producer at that time.
Fanshen Cox [00:03:27]: By the way, you and Effie are on this season. Both of you are.
Aaliyah Williams [00:03:30]: I love it! I love it!
Fanshen Cox [00:03:33]: But she was our first episode of this, our first recording. Yeah, the energy. And yes
Aaliyah Williams [00:03:41]:Her energy is everything. So yeah, I was coming out of—I worked, I did my year at Endeavor and then worked for Effie. Unbeknownst to her, I was turning her office by night into like our production office for The Young and Evil.
Fanshen Cox [00:03:57]: You were doing that for—I love it—
Aaliyah Williams [00:03:59]:So, yeah. So Julian was coming out of his Peter Stark program. He had a short that he wrote that he wanted to direct. And he was like, “Aaliyah, I want you to produce this.” And I was like, “Well, bruh, I have never been on a film set. I have been writing—”
Fanshen Cox [00:04:12]: You wouldn’t know that by the way.
Aaliyah Williams [00:04:13]: I had been writing a bunch of script coverage. I have been organizing people's calendars. I have been doing all the things. But as your friend, I really think you should probably find somebody else. He was like, “Absolutely not. You figure it out.” He brought me—he was a Project Involve alum, and Effie actually was his mentor when he was in Project Involve.
Fanshen Cox [00:04:35]:Thats right he and I were at the same year in ’07.
Aaliyah Williams [00:04:38]:Yes! That’s how it happened.
Fanshen Cox [00:04:39]: That’s right.
Aaliyah Williams [00:04:39]: That’s how it happened.
Fanshen Cox [00:04:40]: I emailed him and was like, could I please do anything at all to be in your orbit? What do you need? You need an assistant? And he was like, yeah, you know, you could just be my assistant on the set.
Aaliyah Williams [00:04:51]: Yes. Okay. Yes. It’s all coming back to me now. And so he introduced me to Film Independent. I went and I started taking some classes on budgeting, and I eventually became a Project Involve fellow. But anyway, we had this short called The Young and Evil that we shot on 35 millimeter film and by hook or by crook got the money together on 35 millimeter film. Girl, during one of our most challenging days—and shout out to the Brotherhood Crusade of Los Angeles—they were our fiscal agent, and they also allowed us to shoot in their offices for some of it. Like it was just a whole thing. But yeah, the camera—we ran out of footage. And we had a new filmmaker grant from Panavision, had one of these huge old-school cameras that totally just went out on a weekend, and I was calling everybody at Panavision that would answer a phone to get us a new camera body and all the things. Everything that could have happened on that short happened.
Fanshen Cox [00:06:05]: Trial by fire.
Aaliyah Williams [00:06:06]: Trial by fire. But it was a beautiful experience. And that short went on to—we premiered at the San Francisco International Gay and Lesbian Film Festival because of all of the themes and Julian being a very proud and amazing Black gay man and all of this done for Black gay filmmakers. But we ended our festival run at Sundance.
Building a Career: Producing, Digital Media & Finding Her Path
Fanshen Cox [00:06:31]: You sure did. Your first film! Yes.
Aaliyah Williams [00:06:32]: We ended our festival run at Sundance, our first short film. And we were in the process of making a web series called Buppies that we ended up selling to BET, and that was their first original web series. And we were doing that while, at the time, I was working for Michael Mann when he was making Public Enemies. And so, you know, my life—you know, people always ask, young folks who are trying to get in this business always ask, like, you know, what was your trajectory? Everybody’s trajectory is different. For me, I didn’t see a way that I could pay for film school. And I was like, well, I’m going to give myself two years to try to figure it out, because instead of going to business school, I came out to LA. And so yeah, it was like learning by doing. Working for people and then also working for myself on the side, making short films, making digital content and honing my skills and meeting incredible people.
Fanshen Cox [00:07:37]: So I have to say, I mean, when I met you on that set, there was no way that—for me, I was like, this woman’s been doing this forever, right? And not only I knew the magic of who was there, I really did. I just remember feeling so fortunate to be amongst this group of people—creative and also just like, we’re gonna make this happen. And every time I see something new that you're doing, it never—honestly, the only thing that ever surprises me is that you haven’t won all the awards already, that you are not running a studio—and perhaps you don’t want to, because we can talk about that too—because you’ve managed to do all of this. I don’t think I knew about the Michael Mann part. You’ve managed to do all of this, maintaining your focus on uplifting this community. So how are you doing?
Aaliyah Williams [00:08:44]:You know, it's interesting. I don't, you know, you look at something in hindsight and you feel like there's a through line in the moment. I'm just focusing. I just decided to respond to things that struck a chord with me and I was fortunate to always be around talented people, to attract talented people and to be able and this is not easy and creat people, we are not easy. So. But, but you know, it's, it has been a bit of, you know, following what made me happy and even though it was difficult, I just loved telling. I've always been drawn to telling stories no matter what the format is. And so you know, I freelanced for Fox Digital Studio, worked for AOL for a hot second when they had their video studio and then when Russell Simmons launched All Def Digital I was on the starting lineup that, that launched that and remember pressing publish on the very first video and growing that that channel from zero to I think we were at a quarter million subscribers when I left and, and that was a beautiful experience. Like it was, you know, working with comedians, it was working with, you know, YouTuber creator, you know, do it myself type talent but figuring out how you could elevate their work. And so we did everything from music docufollow to lifestyle to sketch comedy and a daily show. And you know, that's where I met Marvin Lemus who I then reconnected with when I was running the digital studio at Macro for Charles King and you know, Stacey King and all the lovely Kings. So I've been fortunate to be in this position, to be at the start of a lot of great places that have gone on to do things that you know, I didn't envision at the time but allowed me to grow as a producer and as a creative. And so you know-
Black Barbie: Development, Funding & Making the Film
Fanshen Cox [00:11:02]:
I was going to ask you because you know, I mean first of all we will have you back multiple seasons because there's so- I would love to hear more about every aspect of that as you're coming up but because we've all, all our producers have seen Black Barbie and love it. Speaking of that, attracting people who are, you know, creative and, and storytellers and impactful storytellers. How did you and Legeria-?
Aaliyah Williams [00:11:32]:
Okay, so this is just another story in like you know, long standing relationships and when you're in these creative streets and always kind of seeing each other and touching base.
Fanshen Cox [00:11:44]:
Yes.
Aaliyah Williams [00:11:45]:
But there is a wonderful woman by the name of Steakhouse, Steakhouse Productions. So back in the day when Sundance first started their creative producer lab, we were of the first cohort to apply. So they chose three folks to get it. But then Stake and I, we didn't get it. But they were like, we just love you all so much. Will you come to the institute and come to a few workshops? And hang out with us. You know what I mean? And so, and so I met Stake that random summer up at the Sundance Institute and we just clicked and have always, you know, called each other, tried to support each other, had different projects that we tried to work on together. Her being a line producer and a creative producer, me being more of a creative producer, and then various ways, like helping each other out. Like when she had with her production company, whenever I had like short form projects and I didn't have the budget to go get my own insurance, I'd be like, hey, Stake, can we. I don't think you can do this stuff anymore. But at the time you could do a little agreement where you could come on and attach to someone's insurance and write a search cert for it. But anyway, that's, that's in the weeds.
Fanshen Cox [00:13:04]:
I love that. Get in the weeds. I never thought about that because in fact we were looking at insurance for the podcast this season. I was like, all right, let me. All right, how are we gonna do it?
Aaliyah Williams [00:13:14]:
How we're gonna do it? And so you can pull together, college friends, pull together. And there's been some, some changes in, in the policies, but at that time that was. Independent producers were doing that quite a bit, especially for like short form shorts and short form, because it's not like that much of a risk.
Fanshen Cox [00:13:30]:
Right.
Aaliyah Williams [00:13:30]:
But so we've just always like seen each other out in the world and, and tried to help each other. And she sent me, I was on an email blast that she sent out to her circle that there was this filmmaker that she had worked with and that she really admired. She was doing a documentary about Black Barbie and she'd received her financing but was in need of a producer. And she attached the deck. And I remember looking at the deck and I'm a deck person. We'll talk about that. But I was struck by her story. Lagueria Davis is her name. Like, let me not keep saying her. And she. Lagueria Davis is the writer, director and a producer on Black Barbie.
Fanshen Cox [00:14:22]:
And subject, really, because also because of her aunt right? That relationship.
Aaliyah Williams [00:14:25]:
And subject, because of her personal connection, her Great aunt, Aunt Beulah Bay Mitchell, which is. She's now my great aunt as well. She was on that first Mattel line when Barbie was created and had this storied career at Mattel as administrator from-
Fanshen Cox [00:14:45]:
Like, the assembly line.
Aaliyah Williams [00:14:46]:
From the assembly line to being in the corporate office. And had a really beautiful relationship with Barbara Handler, the creator of. Founder of Mattel and creator of Barbie, obviously. So I was struck by that personal connection. I'm like, wow. And then also I was struck by the fact that Black Barbie was born in 1980. Like, that's when she was released. And I was like, wait a minute, I was born in 1980. That is insane that she's only been around this long. And for me, my parents, Alexander and Alice Faye Courtney Williams.
Fanshen Cox [00:15:24]:
So grateful to you. Aaliyah’s parents.
Aaliyah Williams [00:15:25]:
So grateful to my parents. I was just on the phone with them. My mom turned 76 yesterday, so. Happy birthday again, But yeah, no, she. They were very adamant about my sister and I having black dolls. That's all I knew. Lagueria didn't have that experience. She and her family, they grew up in Texas, in Fort Worth, Texas. And her family is lovely, but she had a lot of white dolls. And so she was coming from it from this different perspective. And I felt like it was this incredible opportunity to not only learn history, but to examine did black Barbie do her job. And what is that job?
Fanshen Cox [00:16:11]:
I love when you have that roundtable of the scholars all kind of weighing and on.
Aaliyah Williams [00:16:17]:
And also kind of coming from this perspective of, well, any black woman would be a viable subject for this, because you have this experience and you see that in the selection of subjects in the film. And, you know, Lagueria was very ambitious. You know, I'm looking at this, and she wants to do animation. At the time she wanted stop animation.
Fanshen Cox [00:16:41]:
Yeah.
Aaliyah Williams [00:16:43]:
And I was like, yeah, let's bring Black Barbie to life. Like, that's exciting. So, you know, wanting to have all of these elements and then just not even understanding. Like, I've, up until that point had been a voracious consumer of documentary film, but didn't have that experience of, oh, my God, we don't have a script. Like, what are we doing?
Fanshen Cox [00:17:09]:
I love that you're going there because that's part of what. I mean, there's so many beautiful creative choices in there that, again, we just have a whole episode dedicated to this. But I would love to hear a little more on the logistics. So you said that she did come to you already funded, which is amazing.
Aaliyah Williams [00:17:27]:
Already funded.
Let’s Talk Finance
Fanshen Cox [00:17:29]:
A financials question. So are you comfortable telling us about the kind the range, where that budget was when she first came to you?
Aaliyah Williams [00:17:38]:
No, I'm not, but. What I would say is shout out to Lady and Bird pictures. Camila and. And her team were with Lagueria for years before she received her funding in terms of, you know, helping her with her prospectus, helping her with her initial pitches. And Jyoti Sarda, I think is her last name, is a woman who believed in Lagueria from the beginning and gave her the first amount of money for her to do some initial. An initial, like, sizzle shoot with the dolls and all of the miniatures.
Fanshen Cox [00:18:22]:
We see some of that where. And. And I love that yall included that what looked like the original.
Aaliyah Williams [00:18:27]:
I think some of the stuff at the end in the credits is from that original.
Fanshen Cox [00:18:33]:
But, like, there's a moment where Lagueria is, like, walking behind her and it looks like it's in her home. In her home. And, like, we just see. It feels like y' all were like, we're going to include this footage. It's not-
Aaliyah Williams [00:18:49]:
So that stuff was, like, included at the end, but, like, stuff at the top and throughout was. Was the new stuff.
Fanshen Cox [00:18:55]:
Okay, right, right, right.
From Sizzle Reels to Funding: Building the Vision
Aaliyah Williams [00:18:56]:
But all that to say it was a long journey for Lagueria to craft what her idea was going to be, get the sizzle. Going through that process with documentary funding is a whole thing. And then when 2020 hit and there was this push for, you know, really extending an arm to underrepresented voices in a lot of different ways. There was a man, Milan Chakraborty. Oh, my God, Milan. Forgive me for butchering your last name, but he connected Lagueria to Lindley Productions.
Fanshen Cox [00:19:31]:
Yes.
Aaliyah Williams [00:19:32]:
And that is Grace and Sumali, who really believed in the project and gave Lagueria her full budget. And I can say that it was under a million.
Fanshen Cox [00:19:48]:
Wow.
Aaliyah Williams [00:19:49]:
And we worked the hell out of that budget. We worked the hell out of that budget. And so, you know, a lot of it was, you know, obviously opening up my entire Rolodex.
Fanshen Cox [00:20:02]:
You got Shonda Rhimes in there.
Aaliyah Williams [00:20:04]:
So that whole thing that all came later, but we had a whole film that we were able to premiere at South by Southwest. And I want to also shout out our associate producer, Brian Klugowicz, who was an incredible logistical maven and really helped us as we were every step of the way. And she had known Lagueria before. Lagueria had her on her team when I stepped in. And Lagueria had done a lot of work as a line producer. So she had some vendor. One of the main things is we had this amazing sponsorship with Canon with those cameras. And so we had a really incredible deal that made that budget work.
Fanshen Cox [00:20:46]:
From PanaVision to Canon. We love all of them. We love all of them. Yes, they were working better than that Panavision camera originally.
Aaliyah Williams [00:20:55]:
It was a different time and we were just, like, fortunate. We were just glad. I mean, you know, but. But yeah, it was a lot of leaning on previous relationships, opening up our Rolodex, you know, Gabby Sidibe, Ashley, Blaine Featherson, people that I've worked with or just come to know and love in the industry that found something special in the story and found something special about Lagueria as a filmmaker. Right. And so that was just really exciting. And so it was a really tough road. We, we. From the moment I started to us, I think. Was it premiering on. Premiering at the festival or premiering on Netflix? It was a total of three years, which is not bad for a doc.
Fanshen Cox [00:21:42]:
Not bad at all.
Aaliyah Williams [00:21:43]:
Now, Lagueria had been working on this for like a decade before, trying to get her financing.
Fanshen Cox [00:21:48]:
But everybody said, you know how you can make the. This, get this done is to bring on Ms. Aaliyah Williams.
Aaliyah Williams [00:21:52]:
Williams. Exactly, exactly. And we got it done. And I. And we're so proud of the work that we did. And it was amazing. South by was an incredible experience to launch there. But that year, this is 2023, there was no market for documentary film, at least that's what we were told. And I was like, I don't care. We're going to get this done. We had agents from Submarine, it was the agency that represented the film. The film went to a bunch of festivals, hot docs all over the world, all the things. But from that first, south by, One of our EPs, Somali, is also an actress and she had a recurring role on The Resident. And so they were having their. They're having their table read and Shonda is going around to, you know, shake everybody's hand. One of the things that I have to credit Lagueria for, we were so stressed getting everything together for our festival premiere, getting our family to Austin, Texas, getting our crew and. And everybody and organizing all that stuff. She was like, you know, it'd be great if we had some T shirts. I was like, Lagueria, if T shirts magically happen, amazing. But baby, listen, my capacity, I don't have more capacity to think about T shirts. And she went like one night, stayed up all night and, like, made these T shirts, like, designed them and got them anyway. So we ended up having T shirts, and. Which is amazing. And so Somali wore this T shirt to her table read. Shonda sees the T shirt, and it's like, Black Barbie. I love everything about Black Barbie. What is this? And that connection happened.
Fanshen Cox [00:23:36]:
See wear your Sista Brunch T shirt.That's why I tell everybody, yes.
Aaliyah Williams [00:23:40]:
You never know In turn, she wore her T shirt at the same time. We had already, like, gotten interest from Netflix, and it had already been sent to Shondaland as well. So it was like all these kind of things happening at once. But once we got on the zoom with Shondaland, with Shonda Rhimes, Allison Eagle, Betsy Beers. It was amazing. It was glorious. It was like, oh, my God, they were so. They had clearly really watched our festival film. And, you know, as filmmakers, you don't ever want to hear somebody ask you to open up the film. But they were like, is there anything that you wish you could have done? And we're like, oh, my God, yes.
Fanshen Cox [00:24:23]:
Can we have one in it?
Aaliyah Williams [00:24:24]:
We really wanted to have people who had had a doll made in their image, and it just wasn't lining up for us. We really wanted Maxine Waters. I had been in touch with her office quite a bit, and again, the woman is doing a ton of things. So our schedules didn't line up at the time. And what we didn't know is that Mattel had reached out to Shonda to make another doll in her image. So it all kind of just aligned in this beautiful way. Now, there was a lot of negotiating that had to happen to make sure that the deal made sense for all of the work that had been put into this. Making sure that we could pay Lindley back completely, our agents, and then still be compensated as black women filmmakers.
Fanshen Cox [00:25:10]:
I love that you're talking about that part. Right. Because you are so well established and have so many good relationships that I would hope, anyway, that that made that piece easier.
Aaliyah Williams [00:25:25]:
No ma’am
Fanshen Cox [00:25:27]:
But it's right. Right.And it's important to say-
Aaliyah Williams [00:25:28]:
I was like, I love that you have that beautiful hope. No, ma'am.
Join Us on Patreon
Fanshen Cox [00:25:32]:
You might be listening to this on Apple or Spotify, which is fine, and we love that. If so, leave us a review, click that five stars. But if you want to see the lovely, gorgeous, beautiful, amazing faces of our guests, you can head over to our YouTube channel. So that's YouTube.com/ TruJulo media. That's T - R - U - J - U - L - O Media. TruJulo stands for truth, justice and love. Because that's what we're all about here at Sista Brunch.
Aaliyah Williams [00:26:02]:
Hi, this is Aaliyah Williams, and thank you for watching the Sista Brunch podcast.
Know Your Worth: Negotiation, Law School & Getting Paid Right
Aaliyah Williams [00:26:02]:
This was a time in my life. This was a season in my life where I was stretching myself in a lot of different ways. At the time, I was working for a management company called Adventure Media. I was finishing up Black Barbie, and I was also finishing up law school because I decided to go get my master's in legal studies.
Fanshen Cox [00:26:28]:
What?
Aaliyah Williams [00:26:29]:
Yeah, that's in my bio.
Fanshen Cox [00:26:31]:
Okay, we'll see. But we didn't get to finish your bio. That's a whole thing. But wait, wait, wait.
Aaliyah Williams [00:26:35]:
That's okay. So I'm saying that because on my graduation day, I am sitting on the steps with my friends, waiting for them to line us up to walk into our graduation. And I'm on a call with our agents, with Lindley with Jeria, and we're talking about the deal that Netflix is coming to us with. And I'm like, okay, no, absolutely not. Like, we need to be at a certain level. We were at that point, we were getting. We were getting closer. But we'd had previous conversations where our agents were like. And rightfully so. They're like, listen, this is what the marketplace is. Just take this. And I said, absolutely not. If we take this. This. This number, it will only pay. It will thankfully pay our investors back. It will pay you. And what will be left, what will be left?
Fanshen Cox [00:27:31]:
For all the labor.
Aaliyah Williams [00:27:34]:
What will be left for all the labor? All the Part. For all of the. Everything. Absolutely. Absolutely not. You know, I wanted to say something else.
Fanshen Cox [00:27:41]:
We can. We can fuck that.
Aaliyah Williams [00:27:41]:
And, you know, thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Brian and Matt and Submarine.
Fanshen Cox [00:27:50]:
Is this partly. Is this part of why you went to law school? To really like and see again? Because to me, in my mind, you've been that bitch since day one. Since Young and Evil on that set. There was no doubt in my mind that you could have negotiated anything you wanted. And yet a black woman needs to go to law school to get that confidence. Or maybe it was also just to show them. Like, was it a way to vet. To vet yourself.
Why Law School: Learning the System & Leveling Up
Aaliyah Williams [00:28:19]:
Honestly, let me just be honest. I'm a nerd.
Fanshen Cox [00:28:23]:
You are. And I love that about you too!
Aaliyah Williams [00:28:24]:
I am thorough nerd. I have been forever.
Fanshen Cox [00:28:34]:
You just want to keep studying. You want to learn more.
Aaliyah Williams [00:28:35]:
During the pandemic, you know, we're all sitting at home, and I was. You know, I felt like I was in development hell, not hell, but, you know, you just. As somebody who likes to make things.
Fanshen Cox [00:28:47]:
Yeah. You were like, well, I need something.
Aaliyah Williams [00:28:51]:
You get a little development fatigue. Right. And I was like, am I losing brain cells? Like, what's happening? And I remember I was on a call with Jamila Jordan Theus, who is now an executive for Taraji P. Henson. And at the time, she and I had a project together when she was at Genius, And I was lamenting to her. I had just. We were. We had delivered. Really Love the movie, Really Love to Netflix that I did when I was at Macro. But at this point-
Fanshen Cox [00:29:25]: And Williams, right?
Aaliyah Williams [00:29:26]:
Angel. I was like, no, not Angela. Angel. Angel Kristi Williams.
Fanshen Cox [00:29:29]:
Angel Kristi Williams. Written by Felicia Pride.
Aaliyah Williams [00:29:32]:
Felicia Pride and Angel Kristi Williams.
Fanshen Cox [00:29:34]:
Yes.
Aaliyah Williams [00:29:34]:
And the dynamic duo
Fanshen Cox [00:29:37]:
And Macros first right?
Aaliyah Williams [00:29:40]:
Feature that they fully, fully financed.
Fanshen Cox [00:29:44]:
Yes.
Aaliyah Williams [00:29:44]:
And in conjunction with Homegrown Pictures, Stephanie, Elaine, and Mel Jones. Mel Jones was my producing partner.
Fanshen Cox [00:29:53]:
Okay. The trifecta right there.
Aaliyah Williams [00:29:56]:
But I was the one that was, like, really deep in all of, like, the legal stuff. And so I'm talking to Jamila, and I'm like, oh, my God. I'm just. We have all these different lawyers. Why am I having to, like, correct them on some of these contracts and some of these drafts? Like, what is going on? Like, I just need to get this done. I'm like, somebody needs to run me an honorary law degree. And she was like, well, it's funny you mentioned that. I recently had this recruiter reach out to me about UCLA School of Law. They have a Master of Legal Studies program. They're looking for people like us who work in the industry but want to learn the law, not necessarily practice. But I was like, oh, my God, send me this immediately. And I immediately reached out to them. I had missed the deadline. I, like, wrote. And I was like, listen, I just learned that this existed.
Fanshen Cox [00:30:38]:
You need to let me yes, yes.
Aaliyah Williams [00:30:41]:
I need an extension on the references, if that's okay. Like, I can bang out this. I will stay up. I will get all this done.
Fanshen Cox [00:30:51]:
Tell us who your references were.
Aaliyah Williams [00:30:53]:
My references were. Who wrote me a letter. Letter of recommendation. The illustrious and always amazing Kim Roth. The illustrious and always amazing Wendy Heller. And so. And I'm. It was. It was a great gift to myself just to be back in the academic space and to, you know, get back into studying to learn. Studying in a very different way. Learning the law, reading cases, it just. It just makes you think about different problems and how you problem solve differently. And I had this Professor Russell Korapkin, who did this amazing. He taught this amazing workshop on negotiations. And it was one of the best things I ever, ever did. And, and just, you know, learning more about intellectual property and all the things.
Let’s Talk Tech
Fanshen Cox [00:31:47]:
Let's take this opportunity to do our Let's Talk Tech segment because we don't talk about legal matters enough. Enough. Right. And, and, and so I love this model of, of both wanting to learn more, but also now that adding to the kinds of projects you're going to be able to do, and most importantly, getting folks paid, getting projects made for more money, how important it is to have that legal background. So tell us a term that you learned or used in law school that would be useful to our listeners and viewers.
Aaliyah Williams [00:32:26]:
At the time, I really learned a lot about fair use, which was very important to the work that I was doing at the time on Black Barbie and really getting a sense of what the four pronged structure of it is and why it's important.
Fanshen Cox [00:32:41]:
What's the four? Yeah, I'm gonna put you on the spot.
Aaliyah Williams [00:32:47]:
But there's basically, there's a kind of like a checklist of what can meet the term affair use, which allows someone to utilize intellectual property that already exists in their own intellectual property in a way that is transformative or commenting on culture in some way. It's a number of different things. And so that really kind of helped me as we're going through like the clearance process, which is such an arduous process but-
Fanshen Cox [00:33:23]:
And expensive.
Aaliyah Williams [00:33:25]:
Well, and also just to understand the language of my lawyer partners, our counterparts at Donaldson, Califf, Shout out to Madison, Carson and me always being like, I think this is fair use. She's like, okay, you're right.
Fanshen Cox [00:33:41]:
This is, it's a perfect one because if you, especially if you're in documentary, but you need to think about this in other narrative as well. But with Fair Use, it's like we think about it. And I know we were supposed to talk about Canva too, and pitch decks, but you should be thinking about that from day one because it will save you money and time later if you're thinking about fair use. And maybe you're still going to end up capturing that eventually, you have to figure out how to make sure you really have them. But it's just, I love this as an example of something that you've got to be thinking about that from day one. It's not just the creative. You've got to have skills and these other things you have to think about.
Aaliyah Williams [00:34:23]:
Right. And even if you're talking about scripted content, it's always the idea of who owns this intellectual property. What are the components of it? You know, we're in a time where, you know, studios really. We were coming out of a time where studios really want scripted projects that are based in some other type of format, like based on a book or based on some other movie. And so what is. But what does that mean? And what does that mean you have the right to do what it. What types of agreements and documents do you need to have in place so that you are not in a bind or an issue down the line when you're ready to sell it or put it out into the world? So I just, again, my nerdicus and feeding my inner scholar was the impetus to me going to law school. And I'm better for it. Like, it was just great. All of the wonderful. My, My. My circle of friends, we called ourselves the legal ladies.
Fanshen Cox [00:35:27]:
I love it. We gotta have to have a sister brunch for the legal lady.
Aaliyah Williams [00:35:29]:
Yes.
Fanshen Cox [00:35:30]:
So we gonna do that. We gonna do that.
Aaliyah Williams [00:35:33]:
And so that was. That really drove me to push for us to get the best deal. And so grateful to our partners, the Netflix Shondaland. And we had this opportunity to open back up the film and put in some better music to put in, you know, more people like Ibtihaj Muhammad and shot at Shonda's house and got a chance to talk to her and, and just working with her whole ecosystem of people at Shondaland was a wonderful experience.
Sista Brunch Signature Question
Fanshen Cox [00:36:07]:
May there be many, many more. Okay. And then, folks, coming to you. Your name deserves to be up there in all the same ways. Okay? We will bring you back for several more episodes. Now that we have. You are part of the Sista Brunch family. We have to wrap up this one up. So I'm going to take you to our signature Sista Brunch question. But also just say, please come back because, my goodness,there's so much more
Aaliyah Williams [00:36:34]:
I was like God, I wanna talk to you about what I'm working on right now.
Fanshen Cox [00:36:38]:
Well, okay. Okay, we have to do that. Okay. Yes. So Tasha's like, yes, please. All right, so you and your younger self, and you can make her as. As old as you would like, are sitting down to a Sista Brunch, and what are you both eating? What are you both drinking? And also. And make her the age that she needed to hear this from you. What do you tell her?
Aaliyah Williams [00:37:04]:
Oh, My God, what a beautiful question. Hmm. I think I'm gonna make her. Oh, God. I think I'm gonna make her 22 right out of college. And we are probably having brunch somewhere in New York. And I think the brunch is still the same. I still love some chicken and waffles and I still love having my trifecta of orange juice and water and coffee and I'm a little mimosa on the side. But I think I want to tell her that you are just fine and it is okay to want a different life. It is okay. You are creative and you have a creative light to shine, and it's gonna shine bright.
What’s Next: Current Projects & Creative Expansion
Fanshen Cox [00:38:11]:
Thank you so much for joining us. We have to have you tell us now what are you working on? How can we support.
Aaliyah Williams [00:38:18]:
I know I told you about when I worked All Def Digital, one of the people that I worked with was a young man by the name of Jay Snow, and he's an incredible comedian and had YouTuber roots. He's got a documentary called You Look Fine. I'm an executive producer on that with Marlon Wayans and Rick Alvarez. And the film has gotten into Slam Dance and very excited about this. Which is now in LA. So very excited about it. It'll be announced next week. So the doc is all about him creating and being incredible comedian and just creative force, despite dealing with the hardest and most complicated version of sickle cell anemia. I am directing. I have two documentaries that I am directing.
Fanshen Cox [00:39:14]:
Wait, do you stop? You don't. I love this. You're directing.
Aaliyah Williams [00:39:19]:
Yeah. So I, you know, over the summer, I really started thinking about what issues were important to me and I wanted to look at things that affected my. Where I'm originally from. I'm originally from the South. I grew up in Arkansas and Oklahoma, but I really wanted to look at the overlapping water crises that are happening in from Arkansas across east of the Mississippi to Tennessee and Alabama, all the way to Georgia and Florida. But infrastructure decay, environmental racism, all of these things that are very solvable that are now exacerbated by the race for AI and data centers. The film is called Tapped Out and I'm currently fundraising for that and working on. On a project.
Fanshen Cox [00:40:10]:
Are you? I mean, I think about fundraising and so many of us are Kickstarter and Indiegogo. But you're probably fundraising, meaning you picking up the phone to your friends. But can we support you? Are you going to be doing a crowdfunding at all? And let us know.
Aaliyah Williams [00:40:23]:
I will let you know if we end up doing a crowdfunding. Right now we're talking to climate change funders, talking to different.
Fanshen Cox [00:40:33]:
I got you. Our folks at Hollywood Climate Summit. They would love this Redford Center. Okay. Okay.
Aaliyah Williams [00:40:41]:
Absolutely. So that is happening. And I'm just being creative overall. I've got a catering business Just Soul.
Fanshen Cox [00:40:50]:
By the way, there's a kitchen right there. And this is our next version of Sista Brunches. We're going to do a cooking show. So you have a catering business. We going to do a little. Your favorite brunch items together.
Aaliyah Williams [00:41:01]:
Yeah. So 2025 was my. My year to just say, okay, Aaliyah, you have these different talents. What it. What brings you joy and what's stopping you from exploiting them to the fullest. So that's it. That's it. Just being my creative self in all the ways, being unapologetic about it and, you know, trying to put good things out into the world and have fun and make some money while doing it.
Closing
Fanshen Cox [00:41:30]:
We are here for you. We got you. Welcome to the Sista Brunch alumni family. Eventually Now. Thank you so much for coming.
Aaliyah Williams [00:41:37]:
Thank you. Birthday twins.
Fanshen Cox [00:41:39]: Sista Brunch is brought to you by TruJulo Productions and was created by Christabel Nsiah-Buadi, Anya Adams, and me, Fanshen Cox. Our producers for season seven are Tasha Rogers and Samantha K. Henderson. Our associate producer is Ashanti Groves. Sista Brunch is recorded on the land of the Tongva, the Gabrielino, the Kizh, and the Serrano peoples. Thank you so much for joining us for the Sista Brunch podcast, for listening and sharing and reviewing and subscribing. We so appreciate you, and we will talk to you next week.